Chattanooga, Another Gun Free Zone this Time with Bloody Uniforms

Chattanooga Marine Recruiting Station Door Photo April Grimley

The facts are still coming in.  Next of Kin are still being notified.  Thankfully the “T” word isn’t being avoided.

I have some sad predictions.  As soon as the authorities announce the type of rifle Muhammad Youssef Abdulazeez used to murder four unarmed Marines the anti-gun community will revisit their attempts to limit American’s right to own such firearms.  The fact that over ten times more kids drown in pools than Americans die by rifle fire will have zero impact on the anti-gun effort.

Even sadder is that after a Soldier was killed outside an Arkansas Army recruiting station, 14 Soldiers died on Ft Hood (both incidents in 2009) and 12 Americans were shot dead at the Washington Navy Yard (2013) we still have a largely unknown and ridiculous requirement that service members are overwhelmingly unarmed.

Military bases, armories and military recruiting offices are gun free zones!  Based on acreage and crime rate they are less policed and patrolled than the average neighborhood yet are among the most likely targets.  Sure military bases and armories have firearms locked behind double metal doors but there is largely NO, ZERO, “NADA” live ammunition stored with those weapons. Live ammo is typically delivered and distributed on the range it is to be fired upon.  There was a time where an arms room holding hundreds of firearms might have ONE magazine of live ammo in a locked ammo box in the arms room to “secure” the weapons in the event someone tried to steal them when the arms room is opened.  That requirement hasn’t increased and is likely to have gone the opposite direction.  Further, troops DO NOT have access to their firearms on a daily basis unless they are in the field.

Here’s a short primer on arms room opening etiquette from my limited experience.  (It may surprise one to know most troops don’t even know what it takes to open the arms room.)  WHEN a unit has scheduled training requiring weapons (not necessary for medical, communications, land navigation, classroom instruction etc.), the unit sends an authorized person on the access list (typically the armorer) to the higher headquarters to pick up a locked box with the arms room keys inside.  The access list is limited to about six people per company, usually the officers, 1SGT and unit armorer.  Headquarters can range from a couple of hundred yards to a mile away.  Once at the HQ, the senior duty officer calls the unit and gets a code from another person on the access list authorizing the arms room key box to be surrendered to the authorized person.  The box is returned to the unit where another key opens it up and the arms room is opened after a call to the post police warning them that the arms room is about to be opened (with another code sequence) so the MP’s don’t show up.  The arms room is then opened.  Weapons in the arms room are stored in locked rifle racks chained to the floor.  Every weapon is counted before any are issued.

Unit commanders don’t leave for the day while the arms room is closed.  Arms rooms aren’t closed until every weapon is accounted for by serial number.  That may include a call to a maintenance unit repairing a weapon or a report from a unit spending the night in the field that all weapons are present.  Periodically, (at least every week or two depending on how often the arms room is opened) a full serial number inventory is conducted requiring an officer, a couple of NCO’s and the armorer’s presence to physically read aloud every serial number.  It takes a couple of hours.  Basically the system is set up so that one person is never alone with the weapons and everything is accounted for by serial number before and after opening the arms room. The laborious process described above is why arms rooms are opened very purposely.

Now in an emergency, doors can be yanked open by chains pulled by a truck, locks can be cut (the primary lock used on an arms room door is not going to be cut by the average bolt cutter) and rifles issued.  All that is irrelevant.  It doesn’t create ammunition that’s not stored at the unit.  Bottom line is the troop is unarmed the majority of the time when in garrison.

Over the last two decades personal possession of a weapon on base or while on duty has been increasingly limited.  Typically, post commanders would clamp down on gun ownership after any event on base or around base involving a troop and a firearm.  Today troops are required to register every gun they have at the base MP station.  Those firearms are not authorized to be transported on base unless they are registered, unloaded in a case separate from the driver and even then, only to go to a civilian range.  Firearms cannot be stored in a vehicle temporarily while going to the range.  A concealed carry permit is not honored on a military base.  Being caught with a personal firearm in violation of the above regulations is a career ender.

Active duty bases are largely secured with military police or DoD police, a phone call away.  National Guard & Reserve armories and their small bases almost overwhelmingly have no armed security.  General officers have a personal security detail and sometimes their aide is armed.  The previous Secretaries of Defense have rejected the need to arm additional troops or allow any troops the authority to carry their own personally owned weapons concealed.  The current Secretary of Defense who also has a personal security detail, called the events in Chattanooga a “senseless act of violence” and a “heinous crime.”

We are not learning the lesson that gun free zones are havens for murderous psychos like Aurora Colorado or Newtown Connecticut.  We’ve had four attacks on military facilities the largest gun free zones in the country.  I don’t have much hope that we’ll apply common sense and allow trained troops to carry weapons overseas, to do so here.

What’s supremely ironic is those troops are more secure off the base especially if they have a concealed carry permit than they are on post.

 

 

Be Respectful, Candid and Pertinent. No Posers, No Trolls…
  • Bush’s fault.

  • Txazz

    Today was the last day of Ramadan (dates vary some say 17) and this rich kid decides to enter the gun free zones.  The sadness is terrible.  Definitely the “T” word, most definitely.  Now, the anger starts.

    CBS said two others wounded, Army Recruiter and a sailor – a Navy SEAL.  Such a coward to gun down 4 unarmed Marines.  Said he had multiple weapons in his car with the top down.  We are all waiting to know his weapon of choice.

    Very interesting primer on arms rooms, Maj.  Sitting here shaking my head.

  • KineticFury

    Txazz Heard a witness report on the radio saying a rifle was used at the location with approx 20-30rds fired…but you never no with these things. 
    Somewhat related, saw a quote saying something like “The media had us believe the Charleston murderer was representative of an entire population, but the Chattanooga murderer will not represent anybody but himself.”
    http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/gmc11228720130918070100.jpg

  • KineticFury Txazz 
    Great effing points.
    The media can’t tell the difference between body armor and a fishing vest as well as not very interested in getting it right.

  • Txazz

    UPDATE: New reports say this was a Pacific
    timestamp, and that the Tweet came three hours after the attack. More
    updates when available.
    According to AP
    the shooting started “around 10:30 or 10:45 a.m.” The Islamic State
    tweet warning of the attack or crowing about the attack was posted at
    10:34AM. “Gunshots were fired at a military recruiting center and a Navy
    Reserve center in different parts of Chattanooga, Tennessee.” And the
    Islamic State has called on Muslims to murder American military
    personnel here in the U.S.
    http://tinyurl.com/of7daws

  • Recon6

    Rec’d +1 …6

  • Txazz

    Comment from poster on another site.
    SamF, Wichita KS, United States, 36 minutes ago
    I
    did my last two years in the Navy as part of the staff at a reserve
    center. Prior to 9/11 it was open and anyone could walk in and out.
    After 9/11 we closed the gate, and added razor wire and an armed sailor
    or Marine at the gate to let people in. We pulled the guard out about 6
    months later, made the gate automated and added a reinforced pedestrian
    turn-style thing. If you wanted in, you either had to have a passcode or
    had to be let in by one of the staff. Shortly before I left in 2003, we
    opened up the gate again which allowed anyone in or out. I think a lot
    of reserve centers are this way now. I think its time to close the gate
    again and actually practice some kind of access control.

  • Recon6

    Txazz  thanks cuz, in pics of his car there was a ‘piece’ of the gate/fence enclosure he had driven thru…not sufficient to protect those folks for damned sure… time to once again restrict access using Live bodies with weapons, jmo….6

  • Txazz

    Gun Free Zone

  • Recon6 Txazz 
    I’m STUNNED that so many can’t get their mind wrapped around allowing military to defend themselves.
    As policy we rob American troops of their constitutional 2A rights when they put on a uniform.  Concealed carry permits (and training when required) are superceded by military PC.  
    The Generals and this administration have a captive population that must listen to them.  It’s a unique little window for their dream of America.
    It reminds me of NY State rejecting my request for a carry license (as a trained Infantry Officer) saying I didn’t need it a week before some thugs tried to carjack me.

  • Txazz 
    I did a two year tour as an advisor to a National Guard Infantry BN.  Their armory was in a crime infested area of Miami called Liberty City.  They actually found a body in the motor pool once.  I know of people that carried in violation of regulations on that facility, even officers.  It just made too much sense.  Imagine you’re a thug and you see all these unarmed targets coming into your neighborhood every day?

    Those that carried, took their career in their hands every day.  THAT’s courage.  Doing the right thing even at potential great personal cost.

  • Recon6

    majrod Recon6 Txazz  Major, I recall you telling us that story, and it remains idiocy, imo.
    I have carried a gun since the day I returned from VN, legality be damned, our
    lives are more important…..6

  • Txazz

    This turned out to be false, as the tweet was actually 3 hrs later.  A witness did see him talking on the phone.

  • Txazz

    majrod Recon6 Txazz Vaguely I remember a discussion on this but, don’t remember you telling the story, Will.  Please tell it again.  Did you know of anyone having to use the weapon while serving those 2 yrs. in Liberty City?

  • YankeePapa

    .
    …When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, the troops at Schofield barracks and other installations had to break into ammunition storage areas.  It was Sunday and most of the officers with the authority were either off the installation… or could be reached at a phone number.
    .
    …Fast forward to the end of WW2.  Colonel Lewis B. Puller was in command of a Marine installation on Oahu.  He discovered that to access .50 caliber ammunition during off duty hours… there would be a series of agonizing delays.
    .
    …What happened yesterday was bad.  I think far worse is waiting to happen along these lines.  I won’t say just what here…
    .
    -YP-

  • Recon6

    YankeePapa  in agreement YP, sadly….6

  • Txazz

    Shooting forces Americans to ask: Why aren’t military recruiters armed?
    “I think we have to be careful about over-arming ourselves, and I’m not
    talking about where you end up attacking each other,” Gen. Ray Odierno,
    chief of staff of the Army, told reporters. Instead, he said, it’s more
    about “accidental discharges and everything else that goes along with
    having weapons that are loaded that causes injuries.”
    The comments came as Navy
    officials confirmed a separate incident outside Atlanta, where a
    recruiter accidentally shot himself in the leg with his personal
    .45-caliber pistol while discussing the Tennessee shootings with one of
    his recruits. Officials said he showed the sailor the unloaded gun, then
    reloaded it and inadvertently discharged it as he was putting it back
    in his holster.
    http://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2015/07/17/army-chief-security-at-recruiting-posts-will-be-reviewed

  • YankeePapa

    Txazz ,
    .
    …Yes, American troops sometimes have accidents with weapons. 
    Many a guard shack has a collection of bullet holes in the ceiling… 
    Over the course of ten years in Vietnam there were a large number of
    accidental discharges… But we did not order the troops sent in harm’s way without weapons. 
    .
    …At one point in the Korean War, thousands of North
    Korean and Chinese POWs on an island kidnapped the commanding officer
    and rioted… One North Korean compound was planning a suicidal assault,
    killing as many Americans as possible, including nurses at the
    hospital.  A tough Brigadier General with experience of commanding
    Chinese troops in Burma was pulled off the line and sent to the
    island…
    .
    “…Boatner showed up on Koje-do and was stunned to learn that many of
    the American officers there had no clue. They were organizing a cocktail
    party for him, and trying to work out what uniform his staff would
    wear. “You don’t want your staff wearing the same uniform as the
    guards…”
    .

    Boatner had picked up his nickname “Bull” at A&M, He came down on
    all of the American officers like a ton of bricks. An armed enemy
    controlled the inside of the camp and every officer and man in Boatner’s
    command had better start acting accordingly.

    He ordered that all Americans would carry arms at all times.
    “General, you don’t want to do that, somebody will have an accidental
    discharge…” Most of Boatner’s reply consisted of words unlikely to be
    found in the Bible…”
    Read more: http://sofrep.com/31252/north-korea-koje-lessons-forgotten/#ixzz3gCwMSEna
    -Yankee Papa-

  • Txazz 
    Classic political response.  The negligent discharge is a higher priority than troops protecting themselves.
    About the negligent discharge.  Sailors typically don’t get a lot of firearms training.  Generally much less than Soldiers and Marines whi generally don’t get a lot of pistol training.  Here’s the questions to ask:

    How much firearms training did this individual have?  How much pistol training?  How is the Navy disciplining this iondividual who wounded himself and is being cared for on the gov’ts dime?
    Treat troops like adults and one would be surprised how they start like behaving like adults.

  • Txazz majrod Recon6 
    Not much to tell.  The NG Armory was in “Little Haiti” (Liberty City, Miami).  Not an area you wanted to be in as the sun was going down.  They had about 40-50 vehicles and a fenced motor pool where full time Guard and active duty like I and my detachment parked our cars.  The body just showed up one morning in the motor pool.  Don’t remember if it was foul play or not. 

    By regulation we were not supposed to be carrying personal weapons.  Everyone knew the reg.  I didn’t ask my guys or the Guard troops if they knew the regulation.  I didn’t inspect.  I didn’t ask questions.

    I remember one of the NCO’s in the guard showing me a .45 after talking about guns earlier.  He had it in a soft case unloaded in his desk.  I didn’t touch it.  I told him it was a nice gun and I got so busy that I forgot to tell anyone about it.  Whoops.
    The Guard’s BN CDR was also a Miami Dade police captain though we didn’t have any armed security or additional police patrols. I suspect a lot of people carried. I wouldn’t have felt “comfortable” not being armed.  When we worked late no one seemed especially concerned.  FTR, I’m not saying I was personally armed.  I’m also not saying if I felt comfortable or not.
    I think the locals, like most Americans assumed the Guard was armed (and us by association).  We all were wearing BDU’s all the time.  I’m sure they didn’t know Army policy and when there were hurricanes the Guard didn’t typically deploy unarmed.  You figure the neighborhood punk doesn’t want to take on the Guard.  Remember how quick things quieted down in Ferguson and Baltimore when they finally let the Guard in?   The area also had a pretty strong memory of “interacting” with the Guard when there was a HUGE riot in the early 80’s. https://books.google.com/books?id=Z-Y8fbVSBe0C&pg=PA182&lpg=PA182&dq=Liberty+City+riot+national+guard&source=bl&ots=oR1DVzEIPk&sig=E_SyJD9PWJc8s4_BcAnIT5082OQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEgQ6AEwCGoVChMIw-34iYHkxgIVkpmICh0D9wbA#v=onepage&q=Liberty%20City%20riot%20national%20guard&f=false

  • dear7655

    I can’t believe that soldiers and servicemen can’t even keep personal weapons at their on-base housing.

  • Txazz

    majrod Txazz Recon6 Wow, that was Dade County then.  They lost a lot of ppl in that riot.  I get a better picture now.  And, you are right, am sure they had no idea about policy and assumed you could protect yourselves.  That must have been interesting.

  • Recon6

    Txazz majrod Recon6  That was a difficult time with a lot of disruption… I recall the Haitians and their brand of viciousness in certain avenues….6

  • Recon6

    Txazz  Tex, as you are well aware, that is a Stupid frkn statement.  He is simply toeing the party line for keeping American troops unarmed even as the world has become more violent.  This is just a ridiculous argument to me.  If American troops cannot be armed at home they become soft targets, i.e. Chattanooga!!

    Naturally there will be ‘issues’, but I find the idea of ‘accidental discharge’ relevant only in one situation, the boudoir…

    Give these troops the means to protect themselves and the community where they work, period.  Anything less will result in the further rise of my already dangerous B/P… I cannot tolerate absolute Stupidity….6

  • steelhorse

    Its just insane most states don’t even require vets to go through the training course to get ccw permit logic being their already trained if you can carry outside the gate you should be able to carry inside it’s a no brainer that explains why they can’t because those making the rules have no brain

  • Txazz

    The Navy announced Saturday that Navy Petty Officer 2nd Class
    Randall Smith, 24, had died from his injuries. Smith was one of three
    people injured by the jihadi.
    Smith was shot three times at the Navy Operational Support Center
    (NOSC) by the jihadi. He was struck in the right arm, back and stomach,
    family members told the Salina Journal, according to the Chattanoogan.
    He underwent several surgeries and died early a.m. Saturday.
    Smith grew up in Paulding, Ohio and leaves behind a wife and three young
    daughters.
    Although badly injured he was still able to communicate with his wife at the hospital after emerging from one of the surgeries.
    “When he came out he finally responded to them and he gave his wife a thumbs up,”.RIP Navy Petty Officer 2nd Class Randall Smith

  • steelhorse 
    If anyone has earned the right to own/carry a gun it’s a vet.
    That said just like some states the training bar for military vets is incredibly low.  Had I not actively pursued handgun training while in the service I’d only have retired with a small fraction of the knowledge, experience and skill I accumulated.
    If it wasn’t because the anti-2a crowd would use training requirements as a way to keep anyone from owning a gun, I would support mandatory training.
    Agree on CCW being honored on a military base.  A service member who goes through the trouble of procuring a CCW is already setting himself way above the average.

  • dear7655 
    I think it depends on the service.  Army bases allow those living in on post housing to own firearms in their quarters.  They do have to register them though.

  • steelhorse

    Yes the anti2a crowd would use training to stop gun ownership but everyone should get it i don’t let anyone shoot on the range i built on my property without adhering to the safety rules and getting my safety refresher i got training from a Marine di at a young age and never forgot it he also happened to be my uncle so it doesn’t have to be training you pay for but good training none the less

  • YankeePapa

    steelhorse ,

    .
    …In
    Idaho until recently system went like this.  Permits issued for five
    years.  You either have to have gone through a gun safety course (at one
    of a large number of private ranges/groups) or present a DD-214. 
    Knives four inches or less… or pepper spray do not require permit. 
    Still that way but…

    .
    …New type permit came out
    about a year ago… Enhanced permit available… good in more states. 
    Allows concealed carry in some portions of colleges, etc.  (Legislation
    also issued special permits to retired police officers…) 
    .
    …Only
    about 1000 Idaho citizens interested enough to apply for new type
    permit.  But Boise State University went berserk… Couldn’t stop the
    legislation… so “threatened” to arm its police officers… (that’s
    supposed to bother Idaho citizens?)
    .
    -YP-

  • YankeePapa

    .Gun & Weapon Laws

    External Link

    Purchasing Firearms
    There is no state permit required for the purchase of any rifle, shotgun, or handgun.
    .

    It is unlawful to directly or indirectly sell to any minor under the
    age of eighteen years any weapon without the written consent of the
    parent or guardian of the minor.
    .

    No state permit is required to possess a rifle, shotgun or handgun.
    .

    http://legislature.idaho.gov/idstat/Title18/T18CH33.htm for more information and restrictions.
    .

    Concealed Weapons
    Idaho law requires a license to carry a concealed weapon. Concealed weapon licenses can be obtained from your County Sheriff for $20, and is valid for five years. Renewal is $15.
    You may carry a firearm in your vehicle inside the
    city limits or confines of a city, as long as it is in plain view,
    loaded or unloaded. But if you are going to conceal it without a permit, the firearm must
    be disassembled or unloaded.
    .

    It is unlawful for any person to carry a concealed weapon on or about
    his person when intoxicated or under the influence of an intoxicating
    drink or drug.

    http://legislature.idaho.gov/idstat/Title18/T18CH33SECT18-3302.htm for more information and restrictions.
    .

    Under 18
    It is unlawful for any person under the age of eighteen (18) years to
    possess or have in possession any weapon, as defined in section http://legislature.idaho.gov/idstat/Title18/T18CH33SECT18-3302A.htm, unless he or she:
    .
         Has the written permission of his or her parent or guardian to possess the weapon; or Is accompanied by his or her parent or guardian while he or she has the weapon in his possession.
    .
    (In smaller towns in Idaho it used to be the norm for high school students to have gun racks in the back of vehicles driven to school.)
    .
    …Note:  Idaho citizens may carry a concealed weapon without a permit when “engaged in hunting or other such outdoor activities” outside of cities or towns. 
    .
    …Visitors to Idaho with a permit from their state may carry concealed, but must have that permit on their persons when so carrying…
    .
    -YP-

  • YankeePapa
  • steelhorse

    Our laws are pretty much the same here in Ohio but here you must be 21 to own a handgun or rifle shotgun 18 (for most part hunting is shotgun only).
    The legislature just loosed some of the ccw laws heard the highlights on news but haven’t looked into it further

  • YankeePapa majrod Txazz 
    Belated but very welcome news.  Informative how some government executives react to issues.
    FWIW, these actions only impact Army and Air Force Guard units.  The Navy and Marines do not have state organizations.
    I’ve been a long time proponent of allowing troops to retain their 2A rights IAW the states they are stationed in.  There have been several incidents where troops carrying their personally owned weapon could have made a difference yet this incident has really raised the issue to national prominence.  I wonder if that’s because of the sign on the Marine recruiting offices door or that it was Marines getting shot that has shocked the nation into consciousness?

  • YankeePapa steelhorse 
    Cops with guns!!!!
    Extremism!

  • Luddite4Change

    majrod YankeePapa Txazz  When I was in the Marine Reserves in the early 80’s, the duty officer at our drill center, who was there 24/7, in southern Houston was always armed.  That might not a prudent policy to return to, both for reserve and active components.

  • Luddite4Change majrod YankeePapa Txazz 
    Not a bad idea.  One gun per HQ might be enough for that type facility.  (Though it seems the four Marines that were shot and killed were outside the building on a compound.  Tough for a duty officer to respond to that.  Gate access was probably lax.) 

    That won’t provide security at the PX/BX, commissary, administrative buildings (where Hasan killed 14), PT formations, troop barracks or in the Army’s case where there are distributed and small company sized armories with maybe one full time Guardsman.
    From an optics perspective it definitely will make it look like something is being done.

  • Luddite4Change

    majrod Luddite4Change YankeePapa Txazz 
    Its adding a preparedness to respond, which often times has a deterrent effect in and off itself.  Not dissimilar to the lower rates of crime in area with high concealed carry.  Bad guys just don’t know.

  • Txazz

    CHATTANOOGA, Tenn. — The FBI has
    recovered a pistol that may have been privately owned and used by one of
    the Marines killed here Thursday during the shooting at the Navy
    Operational Support Center, according to law enforcement officials.
    Investigators
    are trying to determine, based on forensics, whether the pistol, a 9mm
    Glock, was used in an exchange with the shooter, Mohammad Youssef
    Abdulazeez, and possibly wounded him, officials said.
    The
    standard-issue pistol for military personnel authorized to carry a
    sidearm is a variant of the 9mm Beretta 92. According to the Marine
    unit’s commanding officer, Maj. Mike Abrams, Marines are not authorized
    to carry personally owned firearms while at the support center.
    Before entering the reserve center, Abdulazeez had fired more than
    50 rounds into a recruiting office 15 minutes away on the other side of
    town. No one was injured in that exchange — most likely because of the
    office’s recently installed bulletproof windows.
    After
    Abdulazeez was killed, most likely by law enforcement officers who
    arrived on the scene, investigators found that he had a Kalashnikov
    variant rifle, a Smith & Wesson handgun and a Saiga-12 semiautomatic
    shotgun. The Glock was apparently found near one of the dead Marines.
    Abdulazeez had also purchased an AR-15 semiautomatic assault rifle that was recovered at the family’s home, officials said.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/marine-in-chattanooga-shooting-might-have-been-armed-officials-say/2015/07/20/1787a027-bbc4-429b-a8cc-9730d73b96a4_story.html
    *****
    Marine Times – Feb 2015

    In a Marine Corps first, the service recently added a Glock pistol to
    its list of authorized individual weapons, optics and modular
    attachments.
    However, the 9mm semi-automatic Glock 19 pistol is
    officially approved for use only by personnel assigned to Marine Corps
    Forces Special Operations Command, according to a force-wide message
    issued in mid-February. In fact, the pistol will carry a non-Marine
    inventory number because it is a U.S. Special Operations Command asset,
    according to the message.
    http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/military/2015/02/17/glock-19-pistols-approved-for-marsoc-operators/23548847/

  • Recon6

    Txazz  Thanks Tex… well I for one, Hope it Was a Marine’s pistol and he Did return fire!!  Regs be damned as they fought tor their lives, jmo…6

  • Txazz

    Recon6 Txazz WHITE HOUSE REVERSES AND ORDERS FLAGS FLOWN AT HALF-STAFF TO HONOR 5 VICTIMS OF CHATTANOOGA RAMPAGE

  • Recon6

    Txazz Recon6  Cuz, a poor attempt at damage control, but still glad to see this…6

  • Txazz

    Recon6 Txazz 
    A Navy officer and a Marine fired their sidearms hoping to kill or
    subdue the gunman who murdered five service members last week in
    Chattanooga, Tennessee, according to multiple military officials
    familiar with internal reporting on the tragedy.
    It remains
    unclear whether either hit Muhammad Abdulazeez, who was shot and killed
    on July 16 after he gunned down four Marines and a sailor at the Navy
    Operational Support Center in Chattanooga. It’s also unclear why they
    were armed, as it is against Defense Department policy for anyone other
    than military police or law enforcement to carry weapons on federal
    property.
    A report distributed among senior Navy leaders during
    the shooting’s aftermath said Lt. Cmdr. Timothy White, the support
    center’s commanding officer, used his personal firearm to engage
    Abdulazeez, Navy Times confirmed with four separate sources. A Navy
    official also confirmed a https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/marine-in-chattanooga-shooting-might-have-been-armed-officials-say/2015/07/20/1787a027-bbc4-429b-a8cc-9730d73b96a4_story.html indicating one of the slain Marines may have been carrying a 9mm Glock and possibly returned fire on the gunman.
    http://www.navytimes.com/story/military/2015/07/21/sources-navy-officer-marine-shot-chattanooga-gunman/30426817/

  • Txazz Recon6 
    This is very interesting on a couple of levels.  Here are the questions people should be asking but won’t.

    First, troops are ignoring the regulation and given this one situation it’s not exactly rare.  Why is the policy still in effect?  It’s kind of like DADT in reverse.  We knew gays were serving right?

    Second, what happens to the LT CDR?  Medal or Court Martial?  Don’t do anything and that promotes the behavior.  Punish him and you’ll make the delay at putting flags at half staff seem like a warm breeze.  Remember what happened to CPT Swenson and MAJ Golsteyn?
    Finally, there is no way senior officials didn’t know that the Navy CO engaged the terrorist.  When a significant event like this goes down there’s am immediate report.  With that in mind consider the comments made by senior officials and officers about not changing firearms policy.  Isn’t that a bit counter intuitive? It’s like blaming Benghazi on a video.  

    I’ve thrown enough hand grenades for the politicians to play hot potato with.  Thoughts to consider.

  • Luddite4Change

    majrod Txazz Recon6 
    Better to be judges by twelve than carried by six.

    Another question to consider, were the personally owned weapons in the building or in either vehicles when the incident commenced?

    As an aside, when I was AC/RC our armory had an indoor 25m range which was available to the public.  We used to bring weapons to the armory all the time to shoot.  Guess I should have been busted for that.  I never stopped to think of the legal ramifications, as I just considered it no different than bringing POW to the sportsman’s range at Ft. Hood.

  • Recon6

    majrod Txazz Recon6  creates quite the ‘situation’ as you stated Major… if true, the two would have violated policy, which definitely Needs to be changed but I doubt it will.

    From my personal view I hope they did as I would hate to have them not being able to return fire… a personal fear of mine, standing there with my d… in my hand and no gun.

    Hopefully, this ‘violation’ will be quickly smothered.  As you stated, to punish the CO would bring the wrath of all loyal Americans down… but when has public opinion ever really mattered when the desire to punish, warranted or not?

    One can hope this idiotic policy has run it’s course, I remain doubtful….6

  • Txazz

    Odierno clarifies remarks, says Army considering arming recruiters after shooting
    He says the Army is in fact considering whether to arm recruiters if the legal restrictions are lifted. 
    “When it comes to recruiting stations, we are looking at it now —
    what are we doing now to best protect them,” Odierno said in a sit-down
    interview as he prepared to leave the Army after 39 years of service.
    “We will look at every avenue — arming them, there is some authority
    issues with that so we have to look all the way through that.” http://tinyurl.com/qf9k9d5

  • Recon6 majrod Txazz 
    Worst case nothing at all will happen.  America just wouldn’t stand for it.
    They deserve medals.  At least a bronze star, upgraded to a Navy Cross for having the good sense to ignore a stupid regulation.

  • Recon6

    majrod Recon6 Txazz Rec’d +1 …6

  • Luddite4Change majrod Txazz Recon6 
    FWIW and speaking just for Ft. Benning, up to about ’05 there really wasn’t much of an issue of storing your firearm in your car if you were going shooting on post but somewhere after that it changed drastically.  Maybe some weapons were stolen.  Today the weapon has to be registered on post and you can only be going to/from range/quarters.

  • oldSquid(Mafia)

    Will, I have a small issue with your statement, “The fact that ten times more kids drown in pools than Americans die by rifle fire will have zero impact on the anti gun effort.”  Because the anti gun ‘effort’ is NOT about ‘gun safety and keeping Americans safe’, as you well know….. it’s all about disarming the populace and control….just sayin’…. I’m on a tear today..

  • oldSquid(Mafia)

    majrod Recon6 Txazz Agree, Will.

  • YankeePapa

    Recon6 majrod Txazz ,
    .
    …Will a policy appear… at a local command, or higher… of “snap searches” to make sure that “storefront” troops are not armed?  Anything is possible these days.
    .
    -YP-

  • toril

    Great article Will, I have come to realize the biggest issue with gun control is that the people its supposed to protect us from ignore it.  It seems we in the west worry more about people’s feelings and opinions than on protecting the very people who keep us safe.

  • toril

    YankeePapa Recon6 majrod Txazz Given the way things are going can see that being how they respond to the reports, rather than realizing they should be armed.

  • Txazz

    The U.S. House passed the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), for
    some an area of contention that provides too many powers for our
    current Commander-in-Chief, on Friday. The new 2016 version of the NDAA
    includes an amendment introduced by U.S. Reps. Michael McCaul (R-Tex),
    John Carter (R-Tex) and Scott Rigell (R-Vir) that will allow military
    base commanders the ability to authorize the concealed carry of firearms
    on any U.S. military installation.  July 20, 2015
    Texas has twice mourned the loss of our soldiers and civilians after
    shootings at Fort Hood just north of my district. In 2009, Nidal Hassan
    walked into Fort Hood’s Soldier Readiness Center, shouted Allahu Akbar,
    and opened fire, killing 13 and wounding 42 others in the most horrific
    terrorist attack on U.S. soil since 9/11. Five years later, another
    shooter opened fire on the base, killing four and wounding 16 others .
    Enough is enough. We must give our base commanders more discretion and
    our soldiers more protection. Thousands of my constituents in Texas
    already exercise this right responsibly. It is time for our service
    members to be allowed to do the same.”
    http://www.noozsaurus.com/breaking-congress-passes-bill-allowing-conceal-carry-military-bases/

  • Txazz

    Governors in seven states – Florida, Indiana, Arkansas, Oklahoma,
    Louisiana, Texas and Wisconsin – ordered their Guardsmen to be armed. 
    National Guard are the rare exception of military personnel who can
    be armed off-base. Army Chief of Staff Gen. Ray Odierno has cited legal
    issues with arming other service members, including a 19th century law
    restricting the ability to arm Army soldiers off-base in the interest of
    limiting their law enforcement role. 
    Odierno, however, told Fox News that “when it comes to recruiting
    stations, we are looking at it now, what we are doing now to best
    protect them.”
    “We will look at every avenue – arming them, there is some authority
    issues with that so we have to look all the way through that.”
    Outside of military operations, Defense Department policy limits the
    carrying of firearms to personnel engaged in law enforcement duties and
    “qualified personnel when there is a reasonable expectation that life or
    DoD assets will be jeopardized if firearms are not carried.” 
    Adm. Bill Gortney, head of the U.S. Northern Command, which oversees
    security for military facilities in the United States, issued a
    directive Sunday night calling on centers to implement modest measures
    while the Department of Defense hammers out more substantial steps to
    reduce the risk to recruiters.
    Gov. John Kasich on Wednesday the 23rd authorized personnel at Ohio National
    Guard recruitment centers to carry weapons following the shooting in
    Tennessee that killed four Marines and a sailor.
    http://tinyurl.com/ofpkjce

  • Txazz 
    I agree that we must give post commanders more discretion but granting psot commanders this authority won’t solve the problem. Sadly, it is in fact a ploy to look like doing something while not doing anything.  It has the added benefit of providing higher a new fall guy when it happens again, and it will.  
    Most post commanders are generals, generally (no pun intended), politicians in uniform.  Giving them the authority doesn’t mean they’ll use it and most (playing the odds) won’t. Those that consider it will be pressured to justify their solution and God forbid there’s an accident will be cashiered as evidence of how fool hardy it is to arm the troops.

    You have to understand the nature of the beast about who’s in power.  These yahoos have security details, are cold bloodily calculating and have an infinite amount of ambition.  They look up when making decisions and not down.
    The only way you’ll make these cold blooded remoras make a decision is to create a system that holds them responsible in the event a terrorist attack happens on their watch and an armed troop was not able to react.  The fix?  Direct post commanders to in writing justify why they won’t allow troops to be armed.  That way their thoughts can be published next time an attack happens.  Let their assessment and the facts speak for themselves…  

    Let me tell you how an officer concerned about protecting the troops from the threat, negligent discharges and simultaneously executing the mission handles this:  (Maybe I should write an article?)

    1.  Assess the threat and how many armed troops are needed to secure the troops.  Is 1/squad (a dozen troops) enough, 1/platoon (40 troops) 1/company (100 troops) etc.
    2.  Train/arm the counter-terrorist.  
    3.  Get back to soldiering.

    The EASY path to do this is look at your CCW holders and let them carry with a little command oversight.  No need to do the arms room dance.  Heck, as a commander I’d open it up and say if you want to carry clear it with your company commander.  BTW, post commanders have this authority now.  They can allow individuals to be armed for security concerns.  (How do you think the PSD’s or the General’s aide gets to carry?)

  • Recon6

    majrod Txazz Rec’d +1 …6

  • Txazz

    majrod Txazz So we are waiting to hear if the Lt Cmdr was lawfully carrying?  The other fallen marine evidently was not.  I read this morning where the autopsies on all have been completed so they already know what and which shots killed the jihadi – I am not going to use his name.

  • Txazz

    Slain Troops in Chattanooga Saved Lives Before Giving Their Own
    Marines and sailors risked their lives for one another in Chattanooga last
    week, trying to distract the gunman who assaulted a naval center,
    helping people scale a fence for safety and returning fire at the
    attacker, law enforcement officials said Wednesday.
    Some
    of the five servicemen who were fatally wounded effectively sacrificed
    themselves during the assault on Thursday, diverting the gunman from a
    larger group of potential victims, according to a law enforcement
    official briefed on the investigation into the killings.
    “This
    could have been a lot worse,” said the official, who did not want to be
    identified because he was not authorized to discuss the investigation.
    “It could have been a horrible, horrible massacre — so much worse.”
    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/23/us/chattanooga-tennessee-shooting-investigation-mohammod-abdulazeez.html?_r=0

  • Txazz

    Chattanooga shooter methodically moved through naval reserve center
    Reinhold told reporters at a news conference in Chattanooga that the shooter  smashed through the gate of the reserve
    center last Thursday and was almost immediately confronted by a service
    member who had his own gun.
    The service member fired several rounds, but it has not yet been
    determined whether he managed to hit the jihadi, who quickly entered the
    reserve center looking for targets, mortally wounding the sailor inside
    the building.
    “He then made his way throughout the building continuing to shoot at those who he encountered,” Reinhold said.
    A top general said the Marines, who had just returned from a training
    mission, had braved gunfire to save their comrades during the attack.
    “The
    legacy that day is one of valor,” said Maj. Gen. Paul Brier, commander
    of the 4th Marine Division. “I can tell you that our Marines reacted the
    way you would expect. Some willingly ran back into the fight.”https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/marines-braved-gunfire-to-save-comrades-in-chattanooga/2015/07/22/9398c088-3078-11e5-97ae-30a30cca95d7_story.html

  • Txazz

    majrod Txazz Actually this would be a good time to write that article, Will.  Just yesterday AZ Gov armed our guard and first off it’s the CCW holders who are armed.

  • Txazz majrod 
    I VERY MUCH doubt the CO could not have been “lawfully” carrying.  Personal firearms not authorized on one’s person or in a car.  The exception might be if he wrote a CYA “memorandum for record” for himself authorizing carry.  Doubtful, was he the unit and/or the base commander?  Does the same authority extend to reserve bases?  Another option is his commander said OK.  Doubtful, very doubtful.
    In any case the questions should be asked vigorously so DoD has to stand or fall behind its policy.

  • Txazz Recon6 
    My latest article on REFT. You’ll be looking at post
    Chattanooga decision making in a totally different way. 
    Feel free to
    comment here or on RE Factor Tactical a great place to “get prepared”. 

    http://www.refactortactical.com/blog/marine-and-navy-co-defended-themselves-in-chattanooga-the-right-questions-to-ask/

  • Txazz

    Here is the recruiting officer from the first shooting location in the strip mall.  We’ve heard nothing from him until now.  I think I saw his pic once.  He tells his experience and didn’t even know he was shot.

    Marine Sgt. DeMonte Cheeley was sitting on a couch in a small
    store-front military recruiting center last week when shots started
    ripping through the office. the shooter had opened fire
    on the center, and Cheeley and his fellow Marines were forced out a back
    door as dozens of rounds whizzed around them.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/07/22/a-marine-recruiter-was-shot-in-chattanooga-hes-still-playing-the-what-if-game/

  • Txazz

    majrod Txazz Recon6 Perfect place for your timely article.  I agree it would have been best for the General to make a benign comment.

  • YankeePapa

    majrod Txazz ,
    .
    …The military has been moving away from troops having access to weapons for many years.  Sometimes a great effort. 
    .
    …A Marine recruit in the 1920s was issued a 1903 Springfield rifle and was likely to have the same weapon the entire length of his enlistment.  Weapons rack in the barracks. 
    .
    …In 1968 at Marine Corps Recruit Depot our M-14s were padlocked to our racks… We had combination locks that went through hole in metal rack… and hole in safety lever inside the trigger area.  
    .
    ….Some years later most recruit platoons had to go to the armory each time that they needed weapons for drill.
    .
    -YP-

    .

  • Txazz

    That was not bulletproof glass installed (as had been reported) at the Recuiting Center as Marine Cheeley said all the bullets came through the glass and one went through his leg.

  • YankeePapa majrod Txazz 
    FWIW during drill season (fall/spring) we had M14’s (no firing pin) in our unlocked rooms in an unlocked rifle rack, that was true up to’97.

  • Txazz

    Civilian guards ordered to leave shopping center after one accidentally fires rifle 
    July 24, 2015

    LANCASTER, Ohio — The armed civilians who have been guarding a military recruitment center here
    are gone, ordered off the property after one of them accidentally discharged his rifle on
    Thursday.
    No one was injured.
    U.S. Properties Group Portfolio Four LLC, the owner of the shopping center near the River Valley
    Mall that includes the multi-branch military recruitment center, ordered the armed volunteers to
    leave just hours after the shot was fired.
    A Lancaster police officer delivered the order to several of them outside the Armed Services
    Career Center, saying, “God bless you,” but they had to leave.
    The armed civilians have been guarding the center since Monday.
    One of them has been charged with a misdemeanor after he accidentally fired his AR-15 rifle.
    Someone from the recruiting center at 1530 River Valley Blvd. flagged down an officer at 12:01 p.m.
    to report the incident, Lt. Shane Wilson said.
    Reed told police that he was holding his rifle outside the recruitment center when someone asked
    if he could take a look at it. Reed agreed, and while he was trying to clear the ammunition from
    the weapon, he accidentally fired one shot into the asphalt pavement.

    http://tinyurl.com/pb6a4nz

  • Txazz

    Gunning for safety? Military leaders say no
    According to the FBI, two servicemen in the joint Marine-Navy facility had personal weapons inside the facility.
    “At least one of those was discharged at the subject (the shooter),
    whether he was struck by those individuals is unclear at this time. The
    autopsy results are still pending. ” said Ed Reinhold, the FBI’s special
    agent in charge in Knoxville, during a Wednesday news conference here.
    Were those servicemen authorized to have the weapons with them?
    reporters here asked. Reinhold dodged that question, saying any
    authorization “is not relevant to our investigation. That’s an
    investigation that will be conducted separately by the military. And I’m
    sure they will address it at some point when they have completed their
    investigation.”
    Reinhold also dodged a specific question about anyone being hit by
    “friendly fire.” Instead, he said, ” We do not have ballistics reports
    yet . Preliminarily it looks like all victims were killed with the same
    weapon.”
    Reinhold did not address those wounded.
    Further, if preliminary ballistics have told investigators that the
    victims were killed by the same weapon, then they also should be able to
    answer the unanswered portion of the friendly fire question. If there
    were no friendly fire wounds, a simple “No” would have been the easy and
    first answer from a clearly seasoned and capable FBI agent.
    In a best-case scenario, those personal weapons were in the military
    office here to no avail. In a worst-case scenario, those personal
    weapons may have served to intensify the shooting or even resulted in
    friendly-fire injuries.
    We are not suggesting here that the Marines and sailors involved in
    this horrible and tragic assault were not heroes. They most definitely
    were.
    But more guns didn’t and won’t keep them, or us, safer.
    Read the rest:
    http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/opinion/times/story/2015/jul/24/gunning-safetymilitary-leaders-say-no/316221/

  • Recon6

    Txazz  Hey Cuz, you reading that lib crap for intell??  Talk about being anti-gun!!  “but more guns didn’t and won’t keep them or us safer”  wtf??  Of course if all of those slain had been Armed the outcome might have been different.  Especially since the possibility of the Marines having M-4s etc. rather than hand guns Would have made a difference, jmo.

    The typical lib fallacy doesn’t work – Ever… more guns do equal more Safety!!  There are studies, limitless in their scope, that prove disarming the populace equals more violence, just ask the perps…

    And the innuendo in this thread, SUKS… “friendly fire” ?? “best case personal weapons were to no avail” “personal weapons served to Intensify the shooting”…. such Assholes writing this, jmo, but these ppl just really steam me up with their b.s……6

  • steelhorse

    Amen brother these people are reprehensible they have no soul just an agenda

  • Txazz

    Recon6 Txazz Ticked me off when I read “friendly fire” and am sure we’ll get a rebuttal from the Maj.
    ps:  know your enemy

  • YankeePapa

    Recon6 Txazz ,
    .
    …A lot of anti-gun statistics are “one shoe dropping…”  For example, “You (civilians) are more likely to be killed by your own gun than kill somebody else with it…”  Actually true but…

    .
    …While one will suicide if they insist upon it, and careless/stupid people are always a risk… what else is involved?

    .
    …The vast majority of civilians that are forced to use a firearm in defense of themselves, their family, or their home do not *kill* the intruder/assailant.  The majority of times firearm produced in defense in such scenario the sight of it causes the intruder to either flee or surrender… sometimes weapon is fired before that happens… more rarely, the intruder might be wounded.
    .
    …But the “statistic” ignores the overwhelming vast majority of *actual* uses and only counts the number of perps shot sincerely dead.  Any other favorable use of the weapon ignored.

    .
    …Statistic from 1973 showed that something in excess 40% of all police officers shot dead… were killed with their own service revolver.  Aside from suicides… a routine stop by a single officer can become a scuffle and in most cases where perp gets officer’s weapon in their hands… they use it.  
    .
    …This is one reason why any move by a perp towards an officer’s weapon will generally provoke the officer into (once having control of his weapon) urgently shooting the perp critically if not fatally. 
    .
    …Of course nobody back in ’73 advised disarming police officers to prevent 40+% of them from being shot with their own service revolvers…
    .
    -YP-

  • Recon6

    Txazz Recon6  ha ha Tex, I too have been trolling lib sites recently… I try not to become embroiled in their comms, which lead me to becoming amazed at the sheer stupidity of these folks.  Yep, the Major has already responded, quite well as usual….6

  • Recon6

    YankeePapa Recon6 Txazz  Thanks YP, good stuff… yesterday I was on a site that stated, “there have been 204 days gone by in ’15 and we have had Exactly 204 Mass Shootings in America… Mass being 4 or More individuals shot per incident…6

  • YankeePapa

    Recon6 YankeePapa Txazz ,
    .
    …How many shootings by gang members… who already have at least one felony conviction?  This renders them unable to legally acquire or own a firearm and is automatic grounds for sending them back to prison.
    .
    …Vast majority of gang members still possess and carry firearms.  Still walking and driving the streets.

    .
    -YP-

  • Txazz

    Navy officer confirms he shot at Abdulazeez with his personal weapon
    July 31st, 2015

    see the picture of him and his family
    http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/local/story/2015/jul/31/returning-fire-navy-officer-confirms-he-shot/317455/
    I shudder to think if he had been killed as he has 6 children and one on the way.  No wonder he was carrying a personal weapon.

  • Txazz

    6 just sent me this and am angry and disappointed.  What did we expect?
    From Allen West:

    Ladies and gents, resulting from the text message I received
    yesterday, I can confirm that the United States Navy is bringing charges
    against Lt. Cmdr Timothy White for illegally discharging a firearm on
    federal property.
    The text message asked if it would be possible for Lt.Cmdr White to reach out to me. To wit I replied, affirmative. 
    This is indeed FUBAR!
    Here’s what needs to happen. Flood the phone of SecNav Ray
    Mabus and SecDef Carter and ask them whose side they’re. Demand the
    charges being brought against Lt.Cmdr White be immediately dropped. If
    those charges are not dropped, I will personally lead the charge to have
    Carter and Mabus removed from their positions. 
    Lieutenant Commander Timothy White, I await your call, and I will not
    rest until these charges against you have been dropped. You stay strong.
    You showed that you are Steadfast and Loyal. And we will not allow you
    to be abandoned to the perfumed princes of the Pentagon…and the White
    House. America shall rally to your cause!

    http://allenbwest.com/2015/08/whats-happening-to-this-heroic-navy-officer-from-the-chattanooga-shooting-will-make-your-blood-boil/

  • Recon6

    Txazz thanks Cuz… I believe we all were expecting this, but Everyone needs to take the advice to make the phone calls!!!

    Perhaps majrod  has a few ideas of things we can do??…6

  • Txazz

    Ray Maybus, Sec’y of the U.S. Navy, U.S. DoD 
    703-571-3343
    1400 Defense Pentagon
    Washington, DC 20301-1400
    Ashton Carter, Sec’y of Defense
    703-571-3343

    Let’s call and make our wishes known to the DoD

  • Txazz

    When you dial the number for DoD press option 5 and leave your comment. 
    I went round and round the mulberry bush before finding that is our
    only option in making our call.  Later, we will find more options to
    call perhaps the WH or Congress members.
    Now, Will, you may have other numbers or ways you can contact lots of military.  Please share if we can make more calls.

  • Txazz

    of course I sent to friends and here is my former boss’ response: 
    I called and left a message… not my calmest message to date…as this
    is totally absurd..but typical of the DOD,DOJ, and DofState under this
    evil asshole in the White House.
     I really respect Allen West and wish he was still in Congress or running for President.

  • Txazz 
    Shocked but not surprised…

  • Recon6 Txazz majrod 
    This is one of those things where you have to mobilize people.  Start planning what you can do to inform people and start on Mon.  Me?  Twitter, Facebook and promoting this essay that discussed the event before it happened…

    Anyone else notice this news broke on a Friday?

  • Txazz 
    I cultivate sources with the Indians and little chiefs.  They are out of the decision process.
    The heat has to be directed at those wearing stars and their civilian overseers.
    BTW, it has to be two pronged.  Rake the military over the coals is minimally effective,  The decision makers can’t be fired and are more concerned with keeping their political bosses happy.  Meanwhile the administration loves the military losing regard in the public eye. 

    Just go after the politicians and they’ll say it’s a military matter they can’t be involved in.

    (Look at how Bergdahl has played out.)

    This sort of backwards thinking was a long tome in coming and quite predictable.  The social engineering has put lackeys in place to execute.  The mid-grade leaders are afraid of backlash if they speak up.  Troops are sick and tired of being sick and tired.
    Notice how little backlash there was to the proposal to cut pensions 20% and just yesterday the Army announced it was afraid it would miss recruiting goals, 3rd time in 20 years? Except for ’05 (when the Army was trying to grow by 30k), “The active-duty Army had not missed its target since 1999, when it was
    6,290 recruits short; in 1998 it fell short by 801, and in 1995 it was
    off by 33. Prior to that the last shortfall was in 1979 when the Army
    missed by 17,054 during a period when the Army was much bigger and its
    recruiting goals were double today’s.”  http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,77951,00.html
    Who was President in ’79, ’95, ’98, ’99.  What was the morale like in the military?  What kind of international events happened?  (ANS: Iran Hostage Crisis, Cold War almost got hot, 911…)

  • Txazz

    majrod Txazz We got the news first before there was even one article published – 6 got his newsletter from Allen West.  Think I’ll call the DoD daily and I’ve already written to my Senator McCain.  He’s up for re-election so he can’t do anything but, help.  I called his Wash office and daily I will call his others.  I pray Tim’s bullet was one who registered impact on that jihadi and wonder when they will release the results which they already know.

    A petition has been posted at the ‘We the People’ site at the
    White House. The petition needs 100,000 signatures by August 28, 2015 to
    force a response from the Obama administration.Published Date: Jul 29, 2015
    https://petitions.whitehouse.gov//petition/honor-our-service-members-who-used-their-personal-firearms-fight-back-against-terrorist-attacker-chattanooga to sign the petition!
    Again, this is totally outrageous and it
    really shows that Obama hates our Military as well as our 2nd Amendment
    rights. Please share this and help us get the word out. And please sign
    the petition. Thank you and God bless… http://www.americasfreedomfighters.com/

  • Txazz

    majrod Since this morning when I went to the site and signed there have been nearly 5,000 signatures.  It has really jumped since the 4,000 not very long ago.  It was a bit over 10,0000 when I signed.  It has gone viral.

  • Txazz Recon6 
    At the risk of being redundant (I posted it way down at the bottom of this thread), I did explore charging the troops that defended themselves in an essay I wrote for RE Factor Tactical.   http://www.refactortactical.com/blog/marine-and-navy-co-defended-themselves-in-chattanooga-the-right-questions-to-ask/

  • Txazz

    majrod Txazz Recon6 Glad you bumped this one up.  I did read it the first time around but, was good to have a second look.

  • Txazz

    majrod tonight there are over 18,000 signatures.  They keep this up and we’ll get to 100,000 way before the deadline.

  • Txazz

    majrod Recon6 Txazz 
    Sec’y of the Navy Ray Maybus

    secnavpa.fct@navy.mil 
    https://www.facebook.com/SecretaryoftheNavy
    Sec’y of Defense Ashton Carter 
    https://www.facebook.com/SECDEF?ref=br_rs
    Do not post a comment, they will just reject it. Go in and comment on one (or more) of the posts already on the page.

  • Txazz

    UPDATE: Navy Spokesman Denies ANY Charges Against Navy Lt. Commander #Chattanooga
    As Reported By The Chattanoogan:
    UPDATE: A spokesman for the U.S. Navy
    on Sunday denied reports that disciplinary charges will be filed
    against Lt. Cmdr. Timothy White for discharging an unauthorized weapon
    on federal property.
    According to a post of Facebook and
    other social media sites, a statement reads, “Stories of Navy personnel
    being charges with an offense are not true. There is still a long way to
    go in reviewing the facts of this tragic incident, but at this time we
    can confirm no service member has been charged with an offense.”
    Several news outlets, including this
    one, jumped on a report by national columnist Allen West on Saturday
    that stated he was enraged after he had confirmed that LTC White, who
    drew his personal sidearm in the July 16 terrorist attack on a Navy
    Reserve Center in Chattanooga, would face a reprimand and could possibly
    be court marshaled.
    http://allenwestrepublic.com/2015/08/02/update-navy-spokesman-denies-any-charges-against-navy-lt-commander-chattanooga/ 

    FULL STORY HERE:
    Roy Exum: Navy Denies Any Changes – Chattanoogan.comhttp://www.chattanoogan.com/2015/8/2/305393/Roy-Exum-Navy-Denies-Any-Changes.aspx

  • Txazz 
    Saw that this morning.  BLUF, the Navy is lying. They were going to charge the Navy Commander and are reconsidering (prepare for a very slow process like Bergdahl’s prosecution.)

    When I saw the initial report I questioned the credibility which is the first thing I always try to do whenever I read news.  I should have shared but I was busy and tired if writing.  Allen West has a certain perspective on things but I’ve always found the base facts that form his position as sound.  That and the belief that he has developed some pretty good sources led me to believe the official reports as well as the Navy Commander reaching out to him.
    That said and as I wrote in the REFT article, prosecuting troops for defending themselves is VERY problematic and I thought the decision to do so was dumb.  The Navy will move more slowly now.
    Two options, the initial news was either a test balloon to see how Americans would react. Same thing happened with Bergdahl when they refused to use the deserter word and talked about an investigation.  Susan Rice screwed that poochwhen she characterized Bergdahl’s service with the words “honor and distinction”. 
    Second option, some weenie looking to ingratiate himself moved too quickly and let the Commander know he was being charged by some action.
    In any case the military is in a pickle.  Do nothing and you undermine a regulation and the authority that’s supposed to enforce it.  For efficiency’s sake you shouldn’t have more regulations than you need.  On the other hand the administration/military wants to keep pressure up on the 2A when/where ever they can.  Intimidation does that.  It’s why you don’t see ANYONE in uniform talking about the obvious issues surrounding full gender integration in the military.  They know, say something and you’re done.

  • YankeePapa

    majrod Txazz ,
    .
    …Well, for now, the General Article of the UCMJ will suffice for retributi…  uh, er… “disciplining…” comments.  Other, more “progressive” forces have dealt with the problem by sending the offender to penal battalions, gulags, or concentration camps.  We’re not that “progressive… … …” 

    .
    -YP-

  • Txazz

    majrod Txazz I never doubted that Allen West had an inside contact who knew the truth.  See below as evidently Jim Webb does, too.

    The rumor began circulating when Democrat Presidential candidate Jim Webb (D-VA) first reported the news on Sunday.

    Navy charging LCDR Tim White w/ a crime for trying to defend our sailors & Marines in https://twitter.com/hashtag/Chattanooga?src=hash? He deserves a medal, not an indictment.

    https://twitter.com/JimWebbUSA/status/627645323977080832
    Before
    tweeting last night, we confirmed with a defense official that the Navy
    was seriously considering charging LCDR Timothy White.

    https://twitter.com/JimWebbUSA/status/627877860762624000
    The charge being considered is illegally discharging a firearm on federal property. No on the record comment was offered.

    https://twitter.com/JimWebbUSA/status/627877921542287360

    At first, the Navy offered no comment on the story but has since decided to so. http://www.chattanoogan.com/2015/8/2/305393/Roy-Exum-Navy-Denies-Any-Changes.aspx
    http://www.chattanoogan.com/2015/8/2/305393/Roy-Exum-Navy-Denies-Any-Changes.aspx
    http://www.chattanoogan.com/2015/8/2/305393/Roy-Exum-Navy-Denies-Any-Changes.aspx
    UPDATE: A spokesman for the U.S. Navy on Sunday denied reports that
    disciplinary charges will be filed against Lt. Cmdr. Timothy White for
    discharging an unauthorized weapon on federal property.  
    According to a post of Facebook and other social media sites, a
    statement reads, “Stories of Navy personnel being charges with an
    offense are not true. There is still a long way to go in reviewing the
    facts of this tragic incident, but at this time we can confirm no
    service member has been charged with an offense.”
    A spokesman for the U.S. Navy on Sunday denied reports
    that disciplinary charges will be filed against Lt. Cmdr. Timothy White
    for discharging an unauthorized weapon on federal property.Read
    more at
    http://eaglerising.com/21807/ridiculous-us-navy-wants-to-charge-hero-officer-who-fired-at-chattanooga-terrorist-updated/#0wGCZZ0Pt5TU6iIO.99

  • Txazz

    majrod Txazz BTW, the Petition is over 21,000 this morning.  I hope ppl keep signing.  All the calls, emails, Facebook, tweets, instagrams deluged Mabus and Carter as well as Congress.

  • oldSquid(Mafia)

    majrod Txazz As I mentioned in reply to an email this morning, I don’t think they’ll prosecute.. what will happen is,  after all the hoopla dies down, there will be a Board, and a note will be entered into the LCDR’s Service Jacket, and VOILA!!! end of career for him… he may be able to serve to his next retirement point’. but no Commander or higher rank for him, no cherry duty assignments… dollar to a donut bet.

  • oldSquid(Mafia)

    YankeePapa majrod Txazz yet… YP…..

  • YankeePapa majrod Txazz 
    Aren’t we?
    There’s a Lieutenant in Leavenworth for 20 years because he ordered his troops to fire on motorcycle riders that were watching his unit and had repeatedly circled them.  This same previous behavior preceded ambushes and intel had stated Taliban scouts were using motorcycles.
    We sent a Marine Major in for a psyche eval because he had the temerity to challenge the command influence that was giving felony convictions and BCD’s to Marines for urinating on dead Taliban.
    Two years after the Captain of a carrier made videos chiding homosexuality he was relieved and forced from the service once DADT was repealed.
    The Russians just did it more often but we aren’t strangers to using the power of authority to punish people for acting against the desired direction.  
    IRS anyone?

  • YankeePapa

    majrod YankeePapa Txazz ,
    .
    …I concur with your statement.  But my remark was limited to punishment for comments.  To date none have been sent to penal battalions or gulags or concentration camps.  That doesn’t mean that there isn’t something nasty waiting in the wings.
    .
    …Tossing the Major into a psyche ward for doing an Emil Zola number on behalf of his clients instead of pursuing more routine disciplinary measures (assuming that they were warranted…) was an old standby of the KGB.   More than any other incident, it showed the manifest unfitness of the then Commandant… the absolute worst in the Corps history since at least the late 1880s.

    .
    …It also speaks poorly of those who did not immediately correct such a blatant abuse not just of an officer… but the defense attorney of U.S. Marines.  This includes the Secretary of the Navy, the Secretary of Defense, and the President of the United States. 
    .
    -YP-

  • YankeePapa majrod Txazz 
    I know you are very well aware my friend.
    I mentioned it because many aren’t and they may come across this discussion or reading it and not commenting.  I was just putting all the incidents together.
    One is a lonely number.  Four is a trend.

  • Txazz

    If anyone knows, it would be you Will, and Q, and other former military who have seen the Military “speak with forked tongue”.  I hold out hope Lt. Cmdr White will skinny through with impunitybut, the end of the story will be many miles down the road and never reported (that paper in the file folder). At least Tim will know the entire country he serves has risen up to support him in huge numbersand that we are proud of him and others of the same ilk.
    So, tell me, how does the military circumvent the “illegal act” of this courageous Navy Cmdr?

  • Txazz

    Allen West is not the only person to make this allegation about the Chattanooga shooting suvivor. https://twitter.com/JimWebbUSA/status/627877860762624000
    is a former Secretary of the U.S. Navy from the Ronald Reagan
    administration, and on August 2, 2015 he confirmed West’s report by
    speaking to an unidentified defense official.  (I did not realize this)

    http://tinyurl.com/obsmygr

  • Txazz 
    That’s a really nice find.  Jim Webb adds a lot of credibility to the report.  Thanks for sharing it here.
    There’s a couple of ways the service could avoid pressing charges.
    1. There might be a loophole in the Navy Regs allowing a commander to authorize carry.  In the Army the authority is limited to post commanders whoi are usually Generals.  Just say, “”As post Commander the Navy Commander had authority.”
    2. The military has great leeway in preferring charges.  There’s no law that says a commander has to (which is why some in Congress want to take away that decision from commanders when it applies to sexual assault whatever definition we are using today).  The reality is that when a commander doesn’t press charges he has to let his commander know who can reserve jurisdiction and present charges him/herself.  As a company commander, if a soldier of mine committed an illegal act involving the police I knew my Battalion, Brigade and Division commander where going to see that report on their desk first thing in the morning and I’d better have all the answers about the incident because that was the FIRST thing I was doing that morning.  It made for many a late night or VERY early morning.
    Simply put the Navy could give the Commander a “counseling statement” right before the pin a medal on him.
    This still doesn’t eliminate the unique dichotomy of the situation and it’s something the military ignores at it’s own peril.  As I’ve said elsewhere, the terrorists aren’t going to wait until we change the self defense with the personal weapon policy.

  • YankeePapa

    majrod Txazz ,
    .
    …I can’t see a medal in his future under this administration.  The Navy of course might do a “Bergdahl” and delay any possible prosecution until… say… mid November 2016.  See which way the wind is blowing…
    .
    -YP-

  • YankeePapa majrod Txazz 
    I don’t know.  Swenson eventually received a Medal of Honor and he was protesting the insane ROE put in place by this administration when they set the standard of ZERO for civilian casualties in a war (an impossible standard).

    Dakota Meyer has already commented on the Chattanooga shooting.  This could swing and the fact that the majority of the casualties were Marines seems to make a difference in the American conscious.  We had no where near this level of outrage when US recruiter was killed in Arkansas or over a dozen soldiers were murdered at Hood.

  • Txazz

    Scary Camp Shelby, what kind of crazy is that just firing on the soldiers.  No one hurt.

  • Txazz

    Marine Arrested on Gun Charges on Capitol Grounds
    A Marine detailed to the office of California GOP Rep. http://abcnews.go.com/topics/news/us/duncan-hunter.htm
    Jr. was arrested Tuesday for possession of an unregistered firearm
    after a loaded .45 caliber handgun was discovered in his vehicle.
    Gunnery Sgt. Peter Boby, a congressional fellow in the Corps’ Office of
    Legislative Affairs, was arrested after being stopped at a security
    checkpoint near a House office building, according to the U.S. Capitol
    Police.
    Boby was also charged with carrying a pistol without a license and
    possession of unregistered ammunition. He processed at Capitol Police
    headquarters.
    Hunter issued a statement Tuesday evening calling Boby “a top-notch performer.”
    “He’s a hero who’s seen combat, who’s been wounded and who’s been in
    good standing with the Marine Corps throughout,” Hunter said. “We are
    still getting the facts but this was most likely an accident. There’s no
    reason to suggest it was intentional.”
    Congressional fellows remain employees of http://abcnews.go.com/topics/news/us/the-pentagon.htm and are dispatched to http://abcnews.go.com/topics/news/us/capitol-hill.htm offices, where they assist lawmakers and broaden their work experience.

  • Txazz 
    It’s not clear if Boby is on active duty.

  • Txazz

    majrod Txazz  Lots of info here – was coming back from a shoot!

    A Marine Raider working as a congressional fellow was arrested Tuesday
    after Capitol policemen found a firearm in his vehicle during a routine
    search.
    In 2014, Boby served as the staff noncommissioned officer in charge
    of Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command’s recruiting team East
    and Okinawa, and worked to overhaul the command’s 10-week physical prep
    course for Marines intending to attempt the 19-day assessment and
    selection training.
    He began working in Hunter’s office in January
    after he was selected for the assignment by the 2015 Congressional and
    Wounded Warrior Fellowship Selection Board.
    http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/military/capitol-hill/2015/08/04/marine-staff-nco-arrested-us-capitol-firearm/31127885/

  • Txazz

    majrod I find this very interesting:
    The Marine Corps Congressional Fellowship
    Program offers participants the opportunity to work in the legislative
    branch of the federal government for one session of Congress.  Eligible
    candidates include Marine Officers (Active and Reserve components),
    SNCOs, and Civilian Marines.  The program consists of three components:
    (1) training and education through the Government Affairs Institute at
    Georgetown University, (2) work on Capitol Hill in the personal office
    of a Senator or Member of Congress, and (3) a two-year utilization tour
    immediately upon completion of the fellowship.  Per federal law (10 USC
    § 2603), each applicant who is accepted for the Congressional Fellowship
    Program must agree in writing to serve an additional period of active
    duty.
    http://www.hqmc.marines.mil/Agencies/OfficeofLegislativeAffairs/CongressionalFellowshipProgram.aspx

  • Recon6

    Txazz majrod  Cuz you Do provide some of the most interesting intell….6

  • Luddite4Change

    Recon6 Txazz majrod  I had the pleasure of working an issue with Gunny Boby this past March.  As the statement from Rep. Hunter’s office states he is a top notch guy.

    I’m currently working in the DC area for a project.  You always have to double and triple check your firearms and where you may be going, its just way to easy to run afoul of someone’s law here.  Best bet is to only carry a firearm from your house to the range.

  • Recon6

    Luddite4Change Recon6 Txazz majrod  copy that, it is a shame that it’s necessary to have to follow  such requirements and lack of self defense…6

  • YankeePapa
  • Txazz

    YankeePapa You notice the Gov armed the guards at the gate – at least.  He is the same one who personally removed the Confederate Flag – said there no laws so he took it down.

  • Txazz majrod 
    I really considered applying for a White House Fellowship when I was at the Academy.  Branch told me it would be bad for my career because I had been away from troops for a couple of years. (Being the senior officer in charge of a cadet company, battalion or regiment at the Academy isn’t considered troop time and isn’t compared to being in a line unit.  On the other hand it’s very comparable to any basic training assignment.)
    I deferred, when I left the Army assigned me to the School of Americas where I created and ran their Latin America SOUTHCOM Exercise program.  Very unique experience and a great job visiting about a dozen nations running large scale exercises (mostly simulation driven) but heck!  That wasn’t “troop time” either.  
    I guess it all happens for a reason.  Who knows what would have happened if I was working in the White House between ’97-’99!

  • YankeePapa

    majrod Txazz ,
    .
    …Working for Clinton? (At least the one with a reasonable personality…?)  I could write a number of novels… each with very different endings…
    .
    -YP-

  • YankeePapa majrod Txazz 
    The alternative history would be fascinating.  😀

  • Txazz

    Politifact  Aug 6

    The blog also linked to an article from a conservative website, http://www.westernjournalism.com/revealed-navy-officer-did-something-heroic-during-chattanooga-shooting-but-may-be-punished-for-it/, that said White could in theory be punished for violating a http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2015/jul/21/jeb-bush/jeb-bush-says-law-passed-under-bill-clinton-banned/
    (not a law) that says only certain employees can carry firearms at
    military sites. The Western Journalism article does not say that White
    is facing any criminal charges or other punishment.
    It’s also worth noting a difference between this policy about
    carrying firearms at a military site and the potential charges that West
    and Webb said White would face: illegally discharging a weapon on
    federal property. There is a https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/930 that says people are not allowed to use or carry weapons on http://www.gunlawsbystate.com/#%21/federal-properety/federal-property-and-lands/introduction/. There is
    an exemption for some members of the military regarding their ability
    to carry weapons on federal property, though we don’t know if White fell
    under this exemption.
    False is their answer which is ridiculous as the investigation is a long way from being over.  So misleading for ppl who don’t read for themselves.
    http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/aug/04/allen-west/navy-officer-who-shot-chattanooga-shooter-facing-c/

  • Txazz

    Navy Unlikely to Charge  Aug 5

    While officials are not ruling out charges, multiple Navy sources
    said it was highly unlikely that White would be charged or reprimanded,
    which would likely trigger a public backlash and create the possibility
    of a highly charged court-martial.
    The Navy has launched a
    preliminary inquiry, independent of the FBI investigation, that will
    examine all aspects of the mass shooting at the Navy Operational Support
    Center Chattanooga that took the lives of four Marines and one sailor.
    The review will also examine the security of off-base military
    facilities around the country.
    from COMMENTS
    A source with knowledge of White’s thinking said he brought the gun to
    work because he was worried about the command’s safety after recent
    threats from the Islamic State militant group to attack U.S. troops at
    home.
    According to a Navy official, the primary security feature at the
    NOSC the day of the attack was a gate with card swipe access, which
    Muhammad Youssef Abdulazeez drove his vehicle through during the deadly
    assault.
    The Navy has moved to increase security at reserve
    centers located off base. A spokesman for Fleet Forces Command said
    Friday that the Navy was placing trained armed sentries at off-sight
    facilities nationwide.

  • Txazz
  • Txazz 
    That’s all good stuff.
    You are absolutely on target to point out the details are not what will be communicated to the public by the media (reminds me of the Iran nuke treaty).

    Media is not pointing out “unlikely” is not the same as “won’t”.  They are in effect doing the opposite.
    White isn’t covered by the exemption that allows troops to carry weapons on federal property.  That exemption applies to gov’t weapons and in the execution of one’s duties as lawfully directed by one’s superior (e.g. support directed training).

  • YankeePapa

    majrod Txazz ,
    .
    …Speaking of firearms.  The People’s Republic of Seattle (used to be a great place to live) imposed a “crime tax” on all firearms legally sold in the city.
    .
    …Now today, friend of mine from the area sent me this:
    .
    http://crosscut.com/2015/08/atf-confirms-surveillance-cameras-installed-throughout-seattle/
    .
    (Note:  ATF cameras…)
    .

    -YP-

  • YankeePapa majrod Txazz 
    I wonder how many people have read Orwell’s 1984 and the survellance TV in everyone’s room?  It’s not that far off.

  • steelhorse

    It’s already here there’s cameras in TVs now the question is are you watching it or is it watching you kinda creepy when you think about it

  • Txazz

    YankeePapa majrod Txazz This is rather explosive as there is much more than is being said.  Beautiful area and nice people and I did not run into this element.

  • YankeePapa

    Txazz YankeePapa majrod ,
    .
    …I moved to Seattle in 1964 and except for two years in the Marine Corps and two years in Africa lived there until 1997.  Different place in ’64… didn’t have a big city mindset.  Tallest building was a pre-WW2 construct (the Smith Tower…)  
    .
    -YP-

  • Txazz

    Navy to arm sailors at reserve centers after Chattanooga shootingsAug 9, 2015
    The Navy is preparing to arm sailors at its reserve centers across
    the country in the aftermath of the attack last month at a Navy Reserve
    Center in Chattanooga that resulted in the deaths of 4 Marines and 1
    sailor, officials said late Friday.
    The Navy has authorized arming personnel at reserve centers that are
    not on military installations, such as the Chattanooga center, a Navy
    spokesman told Fox News.
    Cmdr. William Marks said armed guards will be posted at the centers
    as “a matter of prudent and necessary action toward protecting our
    personnel.”
    “The threat posed to military forces in the United States by homegrown violent extremists has increased,” Marks said.
    He said additional measures are being considered.
    The spokesman said sailors will be trained to protect the reserve centers in accordance with Navy regulations.

    The authorization is effective immediately but Marks could not say when the actual watches will begin.
    Via http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/09/navy-to-arm-sailors-at-reserve-centers-after-chattanooga-shootings/:

  • Michael_mike

    majrod YankeePapa Txazz 
    A more modern incantation might be the surveillance system collecting intel from every cellphone in the movie “the dark knight” (2008) . We might be past that one too.